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SilverKnight
2003-09-08 18:10:49
Methinks the rate should increase !

How about upping the rate at which problems are posted? This notion that only 12 comes out per week (assuming two/weekday and one/weekend-day) is terribly slow and prevents new people from seeing their problems enter quickly.

At the time of this writing, there are approximately 400 problems in the queue. I understand that most of these are from the same people, but there are at least 25 (probably more) people with various problems (even at queue weight one).

Even if half of the remaining problems are not approved, there are still 200 problems (taking more than a month to get out).

Thanks for your consideration,


--- SilverKnight

Gamer
2003-09-08 18:19:53
Re: Methinks the rate should increase !

I don't... Some problems just get brushed aside when they aren't on the digest (like Knight's tour) and if we increase the rate, people with 9 of the same problem will just put them in 9 different problems instead of just one problem... so the queue will increase this way.

It also takes time for debating about problems, changing them, and giving them thumbs up. As of now, there are only 3 problems with +3 or more which means only 3 possible problems could go on the site.

Anyway, if you are looking for a submitted problem to go onto the site, look in the chatterbox for the conversation about this.

SilverKnight
2003-09-08 18:35:31
Re: Methinks the rate should increase !

I don't understand why someone with 9 of the same problem will put them in 9 different problems.... but even if they did.... the OTHER people's problems would jump (I think and hope) in front of the seven problems with queue weights greather than one, thus solving that "problem".

I'm guessing that (I don't have the privilege yet to know) the reason why only 3 problmes have +3 or more is for two reasons:

(1) Not enough people with the permission to give thumbs up, come on regularly to cast a vote, and

(2) Those people can see only 10 (rather than, say 30) at a time.


So, how long does something stay in the top 10 without getting pushed?
I'm not sure I have a good understanding of how exactly this queue thing works... but what if the top 10 all have +1 (and nothing reaches +3)?

Cheers

DJ
2003-09-08 19:12:43
Re: Methinks ... (it can't!)

Two a day is plenty; any more and each problem wouldn't get the exposure it [usually] deserves. Many people can only get on once a day, for a short time. Really, there's no rush. The queue has diminished by about 20% from only a month ago, and as long as the rate of posting and deletion outdoes the rate of submission, we're gaining all the time.

We don't need a ton of problems to be approved, waiting to be posted. There are more than plenty active voters, and the problems in the voting queue that aren't approved are waiting for changes by the author, or are simply still being debated. 10 problems is enough, also; I think some problems get too much "pre-live exposure" as it is. If there were 30 in there, sure, there'd be more approved, but people with access to the queue would have full solutions weeks before a problem was live on the site.

Much of the fun of this site for a lot of people, something it seems you've missed, is just putting out ideas and solving a problem collaboratively (not rushing to be the first and only person to post an answer). If problems sit in queue too long, that idea gets killed when someone posts a mile-long solution five minutes after the problem goes live; and if problems were to come any faster, there wouldn't be much or any discussion to any of them, as many fewer people would see each problem. Most visitors only ever look at the current latest problem when they come here.

There are always a few problems with +3 in queue, ready to be posted. If not (something that hasn't happened yet), levik can always push a problem manually.

=)

Gamer
2003-09-08 20:47:29
Methinks... (Discussing is good!)

I would agree with most of what DJ says... You can always comment more on a problem... New ideas you have missed, or new ideas for problems can usually be found to comment on... For example, How many moves would it take Towers of Hanoi with x discs and y poles? Now prove the formula you got. Or even trying to find a simpler way to solve a problem, whether it be "Know who your friends are" or "School shelves"...

Just talking about the problem (like talking in crypto speech, and coming up with new and fun "How many letters are in this question" answers) is usually more fun than knowing the answer.

Once a problem is gone from "Latest problem" it lowers the amount of people who look at it, so more problems means less input.

SilverKnight
2003-09-08 22:10:05
Re: Methinks the rate should increase !

You should TRY it before you dismiss is as "more problems means less input".

Another possibility would be to have more than one "latest" problem (perhaps all the problems posted that day) showing up on the front page.... And it could be made more obvious how to get to the newest problems, or perhaps more "flashy" so more people will click on it.

As for your "not rushing to be the first... to post an answer"... are you suggesting that if I have a solution, I should post only a short answer, not show one way to solve it, and not explain how I came to the solution? Or are you perhaps making reference to my earlier comments?

Cheers

P.S. I've had my first two submitted problems (queue weight = 1) "stuck" around 41 for more than a week. I was under the impression that they would move down roughly at a speed corresponding to the speed problems are getting posted from the "top 10".... but that doesn't seem to be the case. Am I misunderstanding how this works? That is, why might problems not move much, even though problems are being posted?

sam
2003-09-08 22:39:28
Re: Methinks the rate should increase !

Not that I know anything, being that I'm a newbie, but I think SilverKnight's idea of having more, but having them all up just as titles in a "flashier" form, might make sense. If I see the titles to todays five puzzles, and lower down to yesterday's five puzzles, I'd might be more inclined to go through them.

Also, just a question, why two on weekdays and one each on the weekends? Surely people have more time to go through puzzles on weekends, rather than less time. Even if having two on weekends is kept, perhaps there could be three on weekends?

levik
2003-09-09 07:46:22
Re: Methinks the rate should increase !

It's simple statistics. The site gets at least 40% less visiotrs on weekends than on weekdays. Therefore, to assure roughly the same "number of eyeballs" reach a problem while it's the top one, we decrease the rate of posting by a half.

I am not sure why everyone is so anxious to go and see all the new problems right away. This site has an archive of over 650 problems sitting and waiting for you to look at. Now I bet most of them are "new" for you. You don't have to read their solutions, and nobody would think worse of you for commenting on something a year old (in fact discussions like these sometimes bring old problems back into the limelight).

If the reason you want the rate upped is only so that you can see YOUR problems on the site faster, consider that most people rarely "click through" to the older puzzles. Would you wish your own to become "old" after only an hour or so?

SilverKnight
2003-09-09 11:08:19
Re: Methinks the rate should increase !

Well... I can speak for only myself regarding the "old" problems... but I've gone through almost all of them. If I think I know the answer, I confirm it by verifying it against the posted solution (or perhaps against another's answers). I rarely post anything to those "old" problems unless I have something new to add (and I generally check all the messages). I still don't see the point to show people that "I solved it too!!!!". Sometimes, I don't know the solution, and sometimes it's (IMHO) yet ANOTHER logic problem that we can all work through with a logic square, or some similar tedious (IMHO) problem that I don't really wish to trudge through.

So, to address your question... I *would* like to see my problems faster. And I *would* like to see "new" problems more often.

And I'm sure you're right about the statistic that roughly 40% fewer people come on weekends.... And I'm sure there are those who do not search the archives. But perhaps this site would attract more attention and KEEP more attention if there were more new problems, more often.

--- SK

Gamer
2003-09-09 15:59:27
Re: Methinks the rate should increase !

I would disagree with you on the last point... It has kept my attention even when we only had 1 problem per day. (We DID try raising the problems, so I am pretty sure I know what would happen.)

I don't understand why less people would come here on weekends as that is where I come here more often.

Flooble is a journey, not a destination... In general, I think a problem won't be noticed as much if it appears less. People will just brush aside problems that they would work on otherwise.

I think what DJ means about posting a solution together is this... Working together and using teamwork to solve problems is a good idea.

SilverKnight
2003-09-09 21:27:04
Re: Methinks the rate should increase !

jeez Gamer.... a sample size of ONE... well... can't argue with that.

But seriously... this place has kept MY attention as well... even with the slow problem rate (wow! sample size of TWO!).

But that's not what I said. Even if the AVERAGE time spent on a particular problem goes down (perhaps because many people only want to deal with the last one or two), you may get many more people, and much more attention. It's only your own prejudice to spend lots of time on one or two problems that leads you to that conclusion. I say this, because certainly there are people who would prefer to see more NEW problems at any given time. (Sample size = one... me... actually TWO since SAM, above, seems to agree :-)

Probably, people use this place as a diversion from work, which is why they come during weekdays. And they're all out sailing and camping on the weekends.

And lastly, please tell me how you changed the rate before and what you observed.

fwaff
2003-09-10 05:05:34
Re: Methinks the rate should increase !

To add to the sample pool...

I'm one of the 60% "diversion from work flooblers" and I spend most of my weekends covered in oil under a car. I usually have a look in the morning when I start to find a problem to keep me amused during the morning and again at lunchtime for the afternoon, so two new problems per day suits me fine.

I find it particularly interesting when the discussion around a problem spawns other problems or when there is more than method of solution. (eg the number square problem that's currently live). I agree with previous posts that if the number of problems per day increased that some of this discussion would be lost as people instead looked to solve the next problem rather than looked to expand or put an alternative view on a current problem.

However, there are occasions when I find the two per day rate frustrating. For example, when there are riddles or knights & liars type problems that usually take all of 30 secs to solve; or when there are several pure maths (eg calculus) problems that I've no hope of solving. It's at these times I wish that the problems were more frequent.

I'm sure though that this is just a matter of taste and that some of our fellow flooblers find hours of amusement in calculus problems (or find some of the logic based problems tedious). So when the latest problem doesn't suit my taste I either look elsewhere or pick a random problem and try to come up with something new for it.

On balance, I'd rather have to go elsewhere occasionally for my distractions than lose some of the banter that comes out through problems being 'current' for longer. There's also the inevitable problem that once the current reserve is substantially reduced, then the issue of quantity vs quality arises. From what I've seen on my searches elsewhere many sites promote quantity over quality and there is a lot of dross to filter before reaching a gem.

levik
2003-09-10 07:49:10
Re: Methinks the rate should increase !

Here's awhat I found to hold from my limited experience with running sites.

People like to be "in touch" with what's going on in a community they belong to. That is, if there are new problems appearing, regular visitors will wish to be aware of all of them. If they don't feel as though they can keep up, they will get frustrated and leave. Sometimes it's not even a fully concious decision - the people are simply no longer "comfortable" in a community that they can't keep up with. (In this case it would require them to log in 5 times a day, or spend a lot of time in the evening to re-view the posted problems)

I believe that if we have 5 problems posted every day, only a small percentage of people will be able to follow them all - especially given that a large number read us from work (and may have to duck and run whenever the boss approaches).

I know that there are exceptions to every rule, but this is something that I have seen happen in web communities before.

SilverKnight
2003-09-10 18:37:50
Re: Methinks the rate should increase !

Hmmmm... I must admit... a well worded (and somewhat convincing) argument.
How 'bout THREE? :-) (particularly when the first two for that day are tedious/easy problems)

Gamer
2003-09-10 20:05:09
Re: Methinks the rate should increase !

I don't think that should be the case... Usually the second problem of the day SHOULD be harder problems or problems that don't just have one solution (like the problem of today)

I agree with levik... I have ditched a few forums because people in there talk TOO much... I don't want to spend all my time there or catch up on a zillion posts.

DJ
2003-09-10 23:01:16
Re: Methinks the rate should increase !

That's a good point.. I already come here like I have OCD, and it takes a bit of time to keep up with things even at the current 'slow' rate of posting. Any more and I might have to drop out of school to keep pace..

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