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This issue has been discussed before, I apologize for bringing it up again but I think I might have a useful suggestion.
A couple of months ago, I suggested (jokingly) that we should have a “pay for help with your homework” feature on Flooble. I think its time to resurrect the idea (only without the money part.)
Lately it seems we are getting more and more of visitors to Flooble who are looking for help with a puzzle rather than puzzles to work. We’ve all seen them, they show up in the chatterbox or one of the other forums. The response to them tends to be in one of three forms: 1) ignoring them (which while it might be effective really isn’t very nice); 2) explaining that we do not do homework for people and gently suggesting that they look around Flooble for answers (also effective but has engendered negative feedback); and 3) attempts to help the supplicant clandestinely (or at least quickly before their request can be removed [you know who you are]) This is the nicest option but it involves scorning the social contract and history shows that a rule that is ignored is worse than no rule at all.
I understand and agree with the thought behind not helping students cheat but I think that there is some middle ground. Saying “the answer is yellow” would be cheating the classmates of the student who asked as well as the student himself. On the other hand, saying “don’t just think about what color hats the man can see but think about what he learned from the answer of the man next to him” would be a more legit way to give someone a hand.
Some of these folks are just lazy but some are legitimately trying. Who knows a small hint from us might be the difference between someone becoming the king of person who joins the math club verses the kind of person who beats up members of the math club.
Here is what I suggest. We petition The Great One (his Levikness) to create a forum called “help with homework” (or something like it). Then when we get someone looking for help we can send them over to the forum where they will be allowed to post their questions (with the express caveat that it is not an “official Flooble posting.”)
Participation in the forum would be voluntary. No one would be compelled to go in and help, but I've watched you folks, you love a challenge and I bet lots of flooblers will take the time to lend a hand. I imagine the hints provided would be along the lines of: “There’s a problem like this in Liars and Knights, you should look there”; or “Don’t just think in base 10” or even “you should do a web search on maraschino primes (I know that’s not what they are called, I’m trying [weakly] to be witty).
This seems like a win-win situation (or even win-win-win). The students win because they get some help. Flooblers win because there will be fewer of these annoying “I gotta problem where do I get an answer” postings in other places and Flooblers win again because on days when you are bored because you found the problem that got posted in the morning too easy, you can have fun giving cryptic clues to inquiring minds.
Let me close by saying this is not a selfless suggestion on my part. I hope to see the explanations that Flooblers post. I find the insights on Flooble both amusing and instructive. I keep a probability tree diagram that DJ posted in a comment back in October on my bulletin board. It explains a lot for a guy like me who never took prob and stats.
So, think about it. If folks think it’s a silly idea, so be it. If Levik thinks it is ill-advised, that’s the way the cookie crumbles. On the other hand, if we like the idea, it could be fun.
Fatboy wrote:
Some of these folks are just lazy but some are legitimately trying. Who knows a small hint from us might be the difference between someone becoming the king[sic] of person who joins the math club verses the kind of person who beats up members of the math club.
I'm not sure which kind of person you're advocating.... :-)
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But seriously... this is a nice suggestion, but you're essentially saying if you post problems here, you won't have to wait the months it would otherwise take to get the "flooble community" to see and answer it.
no Fatboy... I wasn't makin' fun of the typo... I was wondering which kind of person (those who are IN the math club... or those who beat up those in the math club) you were saying is preferable.
I think it's a great idea, but I agree with SK's point regarding the potential for it to be abused to bypass the proper submission process. If it's to go ahead then there'll need to be a fair amount of thought and programming goes into it, because it will not work if it's just another forum.
In principle the problems posted to the homework forum will be ones where the poser needs the answer and is also not particularly bothered about it generating discussion/interest/amusement for the flooble community. Whereas the problems in the proper queue are posted by people who want to show off their superior intellect, have their name on the front page and collect promotion points.
If the homework forum was constructed in a similar way to the current problem submission process then it could separate the bewildered from the egotists. The way I see it possibly working is that problems posted in the homework forum are only visible to the submitter and a select band of homework helpers (cf the voting queue). The helpers would give their cryptic hints in the same way as Journeymen et al put notes on problems in the queue and in the same way the submitter can ask for further clarification.
This way the problem isn't visible to the wider flooble community (so it doesn't detract from the official problems and isn't a short-cut to front-page fame) and the submitter gets the answer she wanted (without having to wait four months, by which time his assignment is 3 months overdue). There could be the added feature that if the helpers believe that the problem is worthy of becoming an official problem then it can be added to the official queue, at which point it goes through exactly the same process as any other problem - ie wait for hell to freeze over before an argument about grammar.
So that the burden doesn't fall on those responsible for maintaining the standards of the official problems then maybe the official queue is restricted to just the Scholars and it is the Journeymen who look after the homework forum.
On behalf of those of us who want to show off their superior intellect, have their name on the front page, and collect promotion points, I thank you for looking out for our interests.
Maybe each thread should disappear after a certain amount of time.
BTW, FatBoy, I think that you missed the > sign on your links. Also, some of those slashes appear to be backwards. Furthermore, you need the hyperlink text and a closing tag. I think (but am not sure) that if you're linking to another site on perplexus, you only need the url that comes after "http://flooble.com/perplexus/" Let me test: this thread
Charlie: OK, I have no idea how many scholars there are or how many are needed to manage the queue. Two possibilities then present themselves (assuming that you agree that the homework helpers should be a distinct group from the official problem quality controllers): either promote more scholars (in this way the quality control is down to people appointed to the task, rather than those who merely have the patience to wait long enough to have 6 problems posted); or appoint a few willing apprentices that have been around for long enough to show that they aren't total muppets (eg Fatboy).
SK: Harsh but fair? I agreed with you, surely you don't expect me to be complimentary as well?!? Pah, some people want the moon on a stick. ;-)
On a separate note, are there any legal ramifications to this homework helper idea? Particularly with regard to a service that is based on 18+ males (perhaps another gross generalisation, but I think most 'senior' flooblers are) giving helpful advice to minors.
If we make it so the less senior flooblers can see it I think it would work. The only problem I would have is people just putting their problem there and not checking to see if it was already on the forum. I worry that the people in charge will have to answer the same questions (like the ones that are classic problems) over and over again.
Folks, I was thinking of something a lot simpler: just a forum like the others with the difference that you would be allowed to post puzzles there for the purpose of getting hints/help with them. I’m afraid that if you limit responses to certain people you create an added burden on them. Charlie is a fairly patient guy but how often is he going to feel like typing “hey, bozo, there is a problem JUST like this one over in the “just math” list, look there.” On the other hand, if everybody shares the burden it seems less burdensome. Heck, I might help somebody just for the chance to show off that I have learned how to put links in my posts. (small things make me so proud.)
fwaff, SilverKnight, Charlie, I see your concerns that people might use a homework forum to get around the submission process and I think it is legitimate but I think it will also be self-correcting. To paraphrase fwaff, most of the folks who want to get around the submission process want to do so for one of three reasons: 1)ego, they desire to see there name or puzzle on the sites front page; 2)ego (part 2) they want their peers (other flooblers) to tell them how clever they are (i.e. “wow, little snively, what a neato puzzle that was.); or 3) to earn points toward promotion. None of these three desires will be fed by posting in the homework forum. No points would be awarded and the problem would appear not up front but locked back in the forums. As for the second point, anyone who posts a problem there and then reveals the answer to show how clever they are will only wind up looking like a dope and (knowing flooblers the way I do) probably facing a bit of ‘good natured’ derision. The way I see it, the only one who loses is the one who tries to get around the system.
The one problem that concerns me is what happens if someone actually starts posting good problems in the homework forum that deserve to be on the front. This would be a shame, as Levik has pointed out, because the good problems would then not get the attention that they deserve. All I can say is, if that happens Levik can always dump the forum and we can go back to how we do it now.
I had not thought about the fact that we would have a bunch of grown men offering help to school age folk (including young females). It does have a certain “ick-factor” to it, but I don’t think any of us are really the “aqualung” types. Its something to think about.
PS a few willing apprentices that ... total muppets (eg Fatboy).
fwaff you are making the fat one blush
