All about flooble | fun stuff | Get a free chatterbox | Free JavaScript | Avatars    
perplexus dot info

Home > Logic
The undiscovered numbers (Posted on 2005-10-29) Difficulty: 3 of 5
Arthur and Bert each writes down a positive integer on a piece of paper and then shows it to Charles. Charles then writes two numbers on a blackboard, visible to Arthur and Bert: one of them is the sum of Arthur's and Bert's numbers, and the other is a random number.

After this Charles asks Arthur if he knows Bert's number. If Arthur says he doesn't know, then he asks Bert if he knows Arthur's number. If Bert says he doesn't know, Charles continues with Arthur, then if necessary with Bert and so on... until he gets a positive answer.

When will Charles get a positive answer?

  Submitted by Hugo    
Rating: 3.6667 (6 votes)
Solution: (Hide)
Yes, Charles gets a positive answer in a finite number of rounds.
Let's call A the number chosen by Arthur and B the one from Bert. Charles writes then two numbers: S (Smallest) and L (Largest), possibly S = L. Let M = A+B. Arthur and Bert must find out if M = S or M = L, this way they could find the others number.
It is clear that anyone knowing M, deducts his own number and he can guess the others number.
Round 1: Arthur knows A, S and L, if he sees that S < A, it follows that M = L. If S = L, Arthur also knows M. On the other hand, if A <= S < L, then Arthur can't know M. So, if Arthur answers "YES", everything ends and if he answers "NO", Bert knows A <= S < L and we go to round 2.
Round 2: Bert knows B, S and L and he knows A<= S. If S < B, then Bert knows that M = L. Also, as A + B <= S + B, then M = S if L > S+B. So either Bert says "YES", everything ends here or Bert answers "NO" and Arthur now knows we are in a situation where L - S <= B <= S, which means that L <= 2S. We are now going to round three.
Round 3: Arthur knows A, S and L and he knows that L - S <= B <= S. He also sees that A + L - S <= M <= A + S. Arthur answers "NO" if, and only if, A + L + S <= S and L <= A+L that is: L - S <= A <= 2S - L ( and Arthur answers "YES" in any other case). Suppose Arthur said "NO". This situation implies that 2L <= 3S and we go to round 4.
Round 4: Bert knows B, S and L and he knows that L - S <= A <= 2S - L or that L - S + B <= 2S - L + B. Bert answers "NO" if, and only if, L - S + B <= S and L <= 2S - G + B that is 2 (S - L) <= B <= 2S - L. Suppose Bert said "NO". This situation implies that 3L <= 4S and we go to round 5.
Continuing the above way of thinking, it is shown that if Arthur answers "NO", it follows that 4L <= 5S and following rounds with negative answers lead to 5L <= 6S, 6L<= 7S,...(n-1)L <= nS. But there will always exist a n which is large enough for this not to be true (Because s < L, as S = L has been eliminated in round 1)
Charles question willl be answered "YES" before the n th round.

Comments: ( You must be logged in to post comments.)
  Subject Author Date
Puzzle ThoughtsK Sengupta2024-06-28 12:10:52
The posted solution is slightly wrongSteve Herman2005-11-05 23:44:29
re(2): General formulaTristan2005-11-05 01:56:04
Hints/TipsSir Arthur versus Bert G. (the drummer)Mindy Rodriguez2005-11-04 21:11:20
Questionre: General formulaMindy Rodriguez2005-11-04 20:57:53
re: How many different answers are there?Leigh Lillico2005-11-04 20:02:25
re: My waySteve Herman2005-11-04 08:21:20
My wayBender2005-11-02 19:10:03
re(4): General formulaTristan2005-11-01 00:22:24
QuestionHow many different answers are there?Mindy Rodriguez2005-10-31 22:47:21
re(3): General formulaSteve Herman2005-10-31 21:57:07
re(2): General formulaTristan2005-10-31 21:22:43
re: General formulaSteve Herman2005-10-31 20:35:01
SolutionGeneral formulaTristan2005-10-31 19:53:21
re: a positive solutionpcbouhid2005-10-31 15:49:15
Solutiona positive solutiontanx2005-10-31 15:40:55
more of a riddle, heres the answerpied electron2005-10-30 22:16:57
re(3): almost a proofCharlie2005-10-30 19:51:55
re: Don't get itSteve Herman2005-10-30 19:13:47
Some ThoughtsDon't get itOld Original Oskar!2005-10-30 19:00:08
SolutionGeneral SolutionSteve Herman2005-10-30 18:52:42
whenEd2005-10-30 17:24:56
re: X = 13, Y = 16 (continued)Steve Herman2005-10-30 16:47:06
X = 13, Y = 16Steve Herman2005-10-30 16:30:48
re(2): almost a proofpcbouhid2005-10-30 15:22:31
re: almost a proofCharlie2005-10-30 12:57:55
almost a proofpcbouhid2005-10-30 11:44:09
No guesses.Hugo2005-10-30 10:53:27
re: "Knowing" vs "Guessing"pcbouhid2005-10-30 10:26:21
Some Thoughts"Knowing" vs "Guessing"Federico Kereki2005-10-30 10:08:06
guesses?Larry2005-10-30 09:58:08
Two possible solutionsAlexis2005-10-30 08:17:55
Hmmm....168.192.0.12005-10-30 04:06:26
Please log in:
Login:
Password:
Remember me:
Sign up! | Forgot password


Search:
Search body:
Forums (0)
Newest Problems
Random Problem
FAQ | About This Site
Site Statistics
New Comments (2)
Unsolved Problems
Top Rated Problems
This month's top
Most Commented On

Chatterbox:
Copyright © 2002 - 2024 by Animus Pactum Consulting. All rights reserved. Privacy Information