Can the omnipotent God create a stone which he(she?) him(her?)self Cannot carry?

(Note: blasphemy added by levik. Disregard if offensive)

(In reply to What this proves by Alan)

Alan, what kind of "god" do you believe in? Cause your 'belief' sounds pretty piddly to me.

I believe in the One God that created the heavens and the earth six thousand years ago, that put the stars in their place. The God that is still alive today, that has given me every good and perfect gift and He who still works in lives today. He created humans and all other life forms as they exist or existed; life did not 'evolve' as post modern debunk evolutionary 'theory' (as evolution does not even qualify as a scientific theory) has perpetuated and been force fed to every student in North America for the past century (a topic I will gladly debate with anyone).

It is impossible, first, to disprove God's existence, as you will be told by the many incredible minds who have set out to do just that, only to be convinced of God's reality.

Further, I don't think that it will be possible to prove that God does exist, in a formulaic mathematical or scientific approach, since such a proof would nullify the need for faith.

A large topic of study for me this semester was examining in the contrived 'evidences' of evolution, such as the 14 popularly supposed homonids (links between men and apes) that were discovered, each of which has been discredited, yet most of which still permeate current textbooks and resources (for lack of any better proof?). Further ovservations, such as the complete invalidity of the widely used C-14 dating, finds (anthropological and archaeological) that show that humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, as well as rock layer formation and deposits that support the ideas of a single creation and a universal flood, back up the full literal story as told in the Bible, but are oft ignored, overlooked, or rationalized away. That is why there are still multi-million dollar rewards outstanding for anyone who can produce incorrigible evidence that evolution actually occured the way the textbooks claim. Why hasn't the reward been claimed? Because it didn't happen.

[I hope to spur up a lot more debate on the subject]



Anyway, back to the original question.

If you are talking about "the omnipotent God," I think the gender of the pronouns is a non-issue. God has always been referred to as a masculine, from the original Greek and Hebrew of the Bible and in every translation hence. I am not sure why it should be ambiguous for the purpose of this problem. If the sentence read, "an omnipotent god," then the pronouns to use might be a little more unclear. Further, the proper use in the English language (as any textbook, secular or otherwise, will tell you) is to capitalize God and all of His pronouns. So, without the 'blasphemy,' the question should read,

"Can the omnipotent God create a stone which He Himself cannot carry?"

or alternatively,
"Can an omnipotent god create a stone which he/she himself/herself cannot carry?"

I will address the first question (the specific case).

Questions like this are designed to make people question their faith and wonder about the validity of statements such as "God can do anything" (how about, "Can God make a mistake?"). In any case, my direct answer to the question is yes. If the question were, "can God create a stone which is too big for He Himself to carry?" I would have a different response. I will address that problem in a minute (as I probably must, since I brought it up).

There are many things that God cannot do. God cannot 'make' people do anything they don't want to. Similarly, God cannot cause people to sin. God cannot act injustly. God cannot lie, and He cannot go back on any of His promises. That does not mean that God is physically incapable of doing any of these things; obviously, if God wanted to come down to me in an audible voice and say, "your shirt is green" (it's really orange) I am sure He is quite capable of it. But the very nature of God, that is impossible for people to understand, will not let Him do anything below Himself. I apologize if that sounds cliché or contrived, but I have not even a base understanding of how God works, but I know what I mean by that and I hope it's clear enough. From that, anyway, God could create a stone that, if He carried it, would cause something else to happen, and situationally He would not be able to carry that particular stone because of some situation. An example escapes me, but in that way such a stone could be created, circumstantially (it wouldn't even have to be very big).

Consider this. There is a stone, under the corner of someone's house that was just built by a contractor, that if He carried it somewhere, would make the house collapse. Suppose, then, if that were to happen, that the furious (ex-)homeowner would then go and strangle the contractor for his shoddy work. Does that mean that God could not carry that stone, because it would cause that man to sin (murder)? That said, I say no, because while the act of carrying that stone may have incited the man, he was not forced and we always still have free choice. A point which reminds me of the [well-known?] story of Job, who lost everything, his animals, his possessions, his family, yet did not blame God (note, that God did not cause Job's suffering either, but He allowed it). The point, I suppose, is the one I just stated; we always have the choice to do what we want to, and God cannot violate that. For which reason I cannot think of an example of a situation in which God would be unable to carry a stone, but I think something could be come up with.


Now to ponder the other question, "can God create a stone which is too big for He Himself to carry?" that I posed before. Were God limited to three dimensions like we are, there still would not be anything too 'big' for Him to physically carry. The earth is a pretty big rock (recall the little kids' song, "He's got the whole world in His hands"). The God of time and space who commands galaxies and universes can most certainly handle anything bounded by the measly three dimensions we have to work with. He could, maybe, then go into the fourth dimension, time, and carry this infinitely huge stone through time. God could then create a stone that is permanent and go into the fifth dimension (whatever that is) and move it. However many dimensions God occupies, He could create a stone that completely encompasses everything, then go into another dimension and move the stone. Then you get into the ideas of what actually defines a stone (is it limited to three dimensions) and what constitutes 'carrying' it. However, that may be most similar to what levik said, but since God exists outside of time, or once you get into the fourth dimension, are successive actions like that even valid? Food for thought, I guess.



Finally, further response to Alan's comments. "What this proves" is not that god does not have an impact on the world. What a ridiculous statement to make, that a question so posed could 'prove' anything about the existence, nature, or ablities of God. Natural secular as well as religious history will show that Jesus Christ not only lived, preached, and was killed, but that He rose from the dead. New miracles still occur and are documented every day, supernatural things that happen as a result of people praying to a living, caring God.

And who's laughing at the spiritual or magic? I don't see David Copperfield being laughed of stage. Rather, people are astounded and amazed at his performances. I believe that his power comes from another very real, supernatural force (but that's an issue for another time). . .

I know a number of Catholics who believe in the full truth of Jesus Christ (I'm trying not to sound 'churchy,' but it doesn't seem to be working), so to prevent stepping on any toes, I should refrain from any comments about the Catholic philosophy of dead rites and sacraments as opposed to a real relationship with Him. The Pharisees and Saducees in the Bible were 'doing' all the right things, and Martha was busy running around trying to prepare a meal for Jesus. But look at Jesus' reaction to them, compared to His reacion to Mary, who contented just to sit at His feet and spend time with Him. It's not about what you do. . That's all I will say about that.

The point is, God is not dead (rather, Nietche is dead. . .) and He is not inactive. I myself have seen too many instances of His hand to be explained away by coincidences. Moreover, I have seen my best friend completely cured of lukemia, leaving the doctors with no explanation than to credit it as a miracle to God. Broken bones fused, tumors and goiters disappearing. . . but of course you're not going to take my word for it. Nor should you. But you can ask my once-doubtful friends, completely atheistic or agnostic, who just asked for God to show them something to prove Himself to be real. And He is faithful.

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I did not intend to be 'preachy'; actually, I was a little [obviously?] upset about a few of the comments that had been made. As I wrote, though, I realized that there is nothing I can say to prove anything to anyone about God or His character or attributes. In even being on this site, I think, I label myself kind of an analytical science/math geek who in all likelihood won't believe anything without the backing of a mathematical proof or some fundamental theorem. I am assuming that most of the rest of you who visit here fall into the same category. I know, too, that the same God who has made Himself so real to me can do the same for each of you, if you let Him. I always love to share my personal story, because it is so amazing and just, real, to me, but I won't take the time here.
[pause]
[insert cheesy TV preacher line here]
So, whatever you're doing, at work, home, school, more than likely staring at a computer screen, I hope that I am making you think a little bit. More than that, though, since any words are so inadequate, I know that God is right there with you, and if you don't know Him, He is pulling on your heart. If there's even the slightest of chances that what I am saying here is true, don't you think it is worth it to see for yourself? Don't think that God can't show Himself wherever you are. I don't know what anyone expects to happen, and I don't know what God will do for you, but I know that those will probably be two different things. I also know that God will always have more for you than you expect, if you really are looking for Him. More than any formula or theory or paradox, God wants to know you. Just ask God to make Himself real to you, and He will.

Hopefully even after wading through all my weighty words (which still seem to be coming..) whoever reads this will get something out of it. I pray that He finds you. God bless.

=)

Posted by DJ on 2003-04-30 19:17:08